System Making

You said that shiva is not a system-maker and sects cannot form around his teachings. But persons like buddha, mahavir, jesus, gurdjieff, seem to be great system-makers. Why do they have to be system-makers? Please explain the pro's and con's of system-making. Are you a multi-system-maker?

For example, a tradition, a very long tradition, is helpful because it will give confidence because it is so long. But because it is so long it is heavy also, it has become a dead weight. So rather than helping you to move, you cannot move because of it. You have to be unburdened. So there are system-destroyers who destroy the system from your mind and unburden you and help you to move. They both help, but it depends. It depends on the age, it depends on the person who is to be helped. In this age systems have become very heavy and confused. For many reasons the whole point has been lost. Before, each system lived in its own world: a Jain was born Jain, lived Jain, died Jain. He did not study Hindu scriptures, it was prohibited. He did not go to the mosque or the church, that…

Bahaudin el-shah, great teacher of the naqshbandi dervishes, one day met a confrere in the great square of bokhara.

THE NEWCOMER WAS A WANDERING KALENDAR OF THE MALAMATI, THE "BLAMEWORTHY". BAHAUDIN WAS SURROUNDED BY DISCIPLES. "FROM WHERE DO YOU COME?" HE ASKED THE TRAVELER, IN THE USUAL SUFI PHRASE. "I HAVE NO IDEA," SAID THE OTHER, GRINNING FOOLISHLY. SOME OF BAHAUDIN'S DISCIPLES MURMURED THEIR DISAPPROVAL OF THIS DISRESPECT. " WHERE ARE YOU GOING?" PERSISTED BAHAUDIN. "I DO NOT KNOW," SHOUTED THE DERVISH. WHAT IS GOOD?" BY NOW A LARGE CROWD HAD GATHERED. "I DO NOT KNOW." " WHAT IS EVIL?" "I HAVE NO IDEA." " WHAT IS RIGHT?" "WHATEVER IS GOOD FOR ME." "WHAT IS WRONG?" "WHATEVER IS BAD FOR ME." THE CROWD, IRRITATED BEYOND ITS PATIENCE BY THIS DERVISH, DROVE HIM AWAY. HE WENT OFF, STRIDING PURPOSEFULLY IN A DIRECTION WHICH LED NOWHERE, AS FAR AS ANYONE KNEW. "FOOLS" SAID BAHAUDIN NAQSHBAND. "THIS MAN IS ACTING THE PART OF HUMANITY. WHILE YOU WERE DESPISING HIM,' HE WAS DELIBERATELY…

Question: OSHO, ALL THE OTHER MASTERS SEEM LIKE PYGMIES. WHAT IS YOUR SECRET? Ouspensky got fed up. But he loved the man, so although he left Gurdjieff, what he did was divide Gurdjieff in two: the Gurdjieff with whom he was, and the Gurdjieff with whom he wasn't. The Gurdjieff with whom he was not, he was against; and the Gurdjieff with whom he was -- he was his Master. So Ouspensky remembers him as "G"; he never writes the full name because the full name will give you a misunderstanding -- you may think he is talking about the whole Gurdjieff -- so he simply talks about "G." "G" means Gurdjieff when Ouspensky was with him. Certainly Gurdjieff had fragments. He tried hard to make a system out of them, but he was not the man -- poetic, imaginative -- to create the system.

As I come to understand more deeply how completely the mind has been conditioned it seems to me that even the guru-disciple relationship is an expression of this conditioning. For man to be totally liberated, must he not also transcend this traditional belief by leaping through love in the wonder and mystery of life itself, beyond the form of gods or gurus? If my heart makes a leap of surrender through a guru, doesn't that very act of creating an authority outside of myself become a subtle form of bondage? I have just described my mind-heart search for truth. Can you please go into this more d

That conditioning still lingers somewhere around his personality. He is not yet free of those ugly theosophists, he is still living that nightmare. That's why he is against the masters. He has never been with a master, he was with these people who were not masters at all. Cunning frauds, charlatans, they wanted to exploit the whole world through Krishnamurti. They wanted to remain behind him and manipulate him in every way. It was a great conspiracy against humanity, and it is good that he revolted. But I think it was too much and he cannot forget it and he cannot forgive them. He is against masters, naturally -- I can understand. If I had been in his situation I would have been against the masters. I would like to ask you: Have you ever been in relationship with a master, which is not a relationship at all? Have you…