[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]
INTERVIEW WITH TED KOPPEL, ABC NEWS NIGHTLINE TV, WASHINGTON, DC
QUESTION: OSHO, SOME OF YOUR FOLLOWERS ARE CONCERNED ABOUT YOUR WELFARE. HOW ARE YOU BEING TREATED?
ANSWER: I am being treated perfectly well, particularly the sheriff and his department, the nurses are being very respectful and loving.
But I had been treated very badly by the U.S. Marshall's department. Without any arrest warrant I have been arrested, on the point of the guns. Unnecessarily they had* put me in a place where I suffered. My back pain has returned. My coughing is coming back. My eczema may start any moment. And this is for no reason at all. I have not committed any crime.
Q: WHY WERE YOU HEADING TO BERMUDA?
A: I was receiving many threats to my life. Few of my friends thought that they should take me to a safe place till the indictment comes, then they can fly me back immediately to Oregon. That was the reason. I was not flying from the indictment. I had no knowledge of it, when it was happening, because it was continuously happening for one year.
So I would have waited here. And the planes were ready to take me back any moment, so this was just a safety measure. I was not flying anywhere. I am a fighter, and when there is fight, I am the last to fly from it.
Q: A MONTH AGO YOU WERE ON THIS BROADCAST WITH MY COLLEAGUE, CHARLIE GIBSON, AND YOU TOLD HIM AT THAT TIME THAT UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES WOULD YOU LEAVE OREGON.
A: Yes, under no circumstances.
Q: BUT YOU DID.
A: No, I have not done.
Q: I MEAN YOU LEFT OREGON, YOU WERE ON YOUR WAY TO BERMUDA, AND IF YOU WERE FEARFUL FOR YOUR LIFE...?
A: But I have not left America....
Q: WELL, YOU WERE TRYING TO.
A: No.
Q: WELL, BERMUDA'S NOT PART OF THE UNITED STATES THE LAST TIME I LOOKED.
A: No. I was going to be somewhere in the United States. I don't know where my friends were taking me.
Q: WELL, YOUR PILOTS HAD CHARTERED A COURSE FOR BERMUDA. DOES THAT SURPRISE YOU?
A: I don't know. I had no idea where they were taking me. I had only this much idea that they want me to be in a safe place and ready to come back at the moment when the court wants me.
Q: OSHO, YOU HAVE A WAY OF ALWAYS CLAIMING IGNORANCE WHENEVER YOU GET INTO A LITTLE BIT OF A TIGHT CORNER. YOU CLAIM YOU KNEW NOTHING ABOUT WHAT YOUR FOLLOWERS WERE DOING BECAUSE YOU HAD BEEN IN A SELF-IMPOSED SILENCE. YOU ONLY HAD CONTACT WITH ONE WOMAN, AND NOW SHE HAS FLED. YOU CLAIMED YOU KNEW NOTHING ABOUT WHAT YOUR FOLLOWERS WERE DOING. THEN WHEN IT BECAME CONVENIENT YOU CLAIMED THAT YOURS WAS NOT A RELIGION.
A: That's exactly how I am, and that's how I function. It is not something that I am playing with. This is how I function.
Q: EVEN YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THAT IT MUST SEEM SOMEWHAT STRANGE TO THOSE OF US WHO ARE NOT PART OF YOUR GROUP, WHO ARE NOT AMONG YOUR FOLLOWERS, THAT WHENEVER YOU GET INTO....
A: I don't care about anybody. I simply stating the truth.
Q: AND THE TRUTH IS WHAT?
A: Truth is this: that I had no idea where they were taking me. And I had not even asked them. I was simply sleeping in the plane, and even from Rajneeshpuram the phone had come to the plane, but it was cut by the politicians somewhere on the way, and it never reached to us. Otherwise we would have come back immediately.
Q: NOW THAT THINGS TO A CERTAIN DEGREE ARE, HAVE BEEN TAKEN OUT OF YOUR HANDS. IF YOU HAD THE OPPORTUNITY NOW TO GO WHEREVER YOU WANTED, WHERE WOULD YOU LIKE TO GO?
A: Nothing has been taken out of my hands.
Q: WELL YOU'RE IN JAIL.
A: That does not matter.
Q: WELL IT MATTERS IN SO FAR AS YOUR FREEDOM IS CONCERNED.
A: I (inaudible)
Q: IT MATTERS IN SO FAR AS YOUR ABILITY TO MOVE AROUND IS CONCERNED.
A: Nothing to be worried -- it is question only of few days -- and a little bit of my health will suffer, but it does not matter at all. My fight will continue.
Q: WHERE?
A: It is continuing here, and I will suing back in Oregon, and fighting.
Q: JOINING US NOW, LIVE FROM OUR AFFILIATE, KATU, IN PORTLAND, OREGON IS MARK GREENFIELD, ATTORNEY FOR 1000 FRIENDS OF OREGON, AN ENVIRONMENTAL GROUP THAT HAS BEEN SUING THE RAJNEESH SECT ON THE GROUNDS OF ILLEGAL LAND USE. MR. GREENFIELD: WHAT'S GOING ON HERE? MG: I THINK WHEN SHEELA LEFT OREGON A MONTH OR SO AGO, THERE WAS A LOT OF SPECULATION THAT IT MIGHT BE IN PREPARATION FOR THE OSHO HIMSELF TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY.... THAT SHE'S SETTING THE GROUNDWORK FOR HIM LEAVING THE COUNTRY. Q: OSHO: WERE YOU IN FACT OFF TO MEET SHEELA AND...?
A: This man is simply speaking a lie. And these people are not one thousand friends of Oregon. These are the enemies of Oregon. And I have no intention to leave America till I am victorious in my fight.
Q: OSHO, IT STRETCHES CREDULITY THAT A MAN WOULD GET ON AN AIRCRAFT AND NOT KNOW WHERE HE'S GOING.
A: I... depend on my people for almost everything.
Q: WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOUR PEOPLE? -- YOUR FOLLOWERS?
A: Yes.
Q: YES. YOUR FOLLOWERS?
A: Yes.
Q: IN THE CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH MY FRIEND CHARLIE GIBSON LESS THAN A MONTH AGO. YOU SWORE UP AND DOWN YOU HAD NO FOLLOWERS.
A: You are calling them followers.
Q: I ASKED YOU TWICE. THAT'S WHY I REPEATED IT.
A: You asked me, and I said yes, because those people think them followers. I think myself they are my friends.
Q: WELL IT'S MORE CONVENIENT TO HAVE THEM AS YOUR FRIENDS WHEN IN FACT YOU'RE TRYING TO DENY THAT WHAT YOU HAVE IS ANY KIND OF A RELIGION.
A: That is no problem. As far as I am concerned they're my friends. And there is no religion.
MG: (PRECIS) WHEN RAJNEESHEES ARRIVED IN OREGON THEY WERE NOT A RELIGION, BUT LATER SAID THEY WERE A RELIGION AS PART OF THEIR DEFENCE AGAINST THE 1000 FRIENDS' LAWSUIT. LATER THEY SAID THEY WERE NOT A RELIGION, PERHAPS IN DEFENCE AGAINST THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S LAWSUIT ON MIXING CHURCH AND STATE.
A: There's one thing you are forgetting: that I was in that whole period in isolation and in silence. So whatever happened in that period, I am not responsible.
Q: I KNOW, YOU ARE ALSO THE SAME MAN WHO WAS ASLEEP WHEN YOU GOT ON THE PLANE AND YOU DIDN'T KNOW ...
A: Yes.
Q: WHERE YOU WERE GOING BUT IT ALWAYS SEEMS...
A: Yes.
Q: AS THOUGH YOU ARE CONVENIENTLY UNCONSCIOUS OR OUT OF THE WAY WHEN THINGS ARE GOING ON ABOUT WHICH YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW....
A: That's how I am.
I was in isolation, and I was in silence, and I had not created the religion. The moment I came out of silence, I finished that religion.
Q: SO YOU HAVE NO RELIGION, YOU ARE NOT A LEADER OF ANY GROUP...
A: No, I am not a leader; I am a friend and a guide.
Q: A FRIEND AND A GUIDE WHO HAS RECEIVED A GREAT DEAL OF MONEY FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT HIS FOLLOWERS?
A: Yes, but they are my friends, and I can receive....
Q: NINETY ROLLS ROYCES SEEM A LITTLE BIT EXCESSIVE EVEN FOR A VERY CLOSE FRIENDSHIP.
A: Nothing is excessive to me. Even nine hundred will not be excessive.
Q: WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO NOW? YOU'RE GOING TO GO BACK TO OREGON?
A: I'm going back to Oregon to fight....
Q: WHAT ABOUT YOUR FRIENDS... YOU THINK THAT THEY WILL BE...
A: They are going to be there and they are going to increase. Every day more people are coming.
Q: OSHO, WHAT YOU THINK YOUR FRIENDS, YOUR FOLLOWERS, ARE GOING TO DO NOW?
A: They are becoming stronger. Whatever has happened to me has helped the movement of my friends around the world. And I am absolutely certain about being victorious in the courts of America, because I trust in the American constitution, and I love the people of America, and I feel that America is the only hope for the whole human race. So I am not going to leave this country. I am going to find for American constitution against American politicians. They are prostituting the democracy and the constitution both.
Q: AND WHAT ABOUT YOUR FRIENDS AND FOLLOWERS? WHAT DO YOU THINK THEY'RE GOING TO DO?
A: They are going to fight with me for the constitution and for the democracy.
Q: I MUST CONFESS YOU STILL HAVE ME SOMEWHAT CONFUSED. IT'S NOT A RELIGION, THEY'RE NOT YOUR FOLLOWERS, IT'S A COLLECTION OF FRIENDS, AND YOU'RE GOING TO BE FIGHTING FOR THE CONSTITUTION, THAT'S IT?
A: Yes, they are my friends. Just the idea is new... idea is new to you -- that's why you feel confused. If they are followers then you don't feel confused.
Q: I CERTAINLY DON'T HAVE FRIENDS WHO ARE THRUSTING DIAMOND-ENCRUSTED WATCHES ON ME OR ROLLS ROYCES ON ME.
A:... you are not fortunate, what can I do? I am fortunate. That's the meaning of the word 'bhagwan': the blessed one.
Osho's Commentary
INTERVIEW WITH TED KOPPEL, ABC NEWS NIGHTLINE TV, WASHINGTON, DC
QUESTION: OSHO, SOME OF YOUR FOLLOWERS ARE CONCERNED ABOUT YOUR WELFARE. HOW ARE YOU BEING TREATED?
ANSWER: I am being treated perfectly well, particularly the sheriff and his department, the nurses are being very respectful and loving.
But I had been treated very badly by the U.S. Marshall's department. Without any arrest warrant I have been arrested, on the point of the guns. Unnecessarily they had* put me in a place where I suffered. My back pain has returned. My coughing is coming back. My eczema may start any moment. And this is for no reason at all. I have not committed any crime.
Q: WHY WERE YOU HEADING TO BERMUDA?
A: I was receiving many threats to my life. Few of my friends thought that they should take me to a safe place till the indictment comes, then they can fly me back immediately to Oregon. That was the reason. I was not flying from the indictment. I had no knowledge of it, when it was happening, because it was continuously happening for one year.
So I would have waited here. And the planes were ready to take me back any moment, so this was just a safety measure. I was not flying anywhere.
I am a fighter, and when there is fight, I am the last to fly from it.
Q: A MONTH AGO YOU WERE ON THIS BROADCAST WITH MY COLLEAGUE, CHARLIE GIBSON, AND YOU TOLD HIM AT THAT TIME THAT UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES WOULD YOU LEAVE OREGON.
A: Yes, under no circumstances.
Q: BUT YOU DID.
A: No, I have not done.
Q: I MEAN YOU LEFT OREGON, YOU WERE ON YOUR WAY TO BERMUDA, AND IF YOU WERE FEARFUL FOR YOUR LIFE...?
A: But I have not left America....
Q: WELL, YOU WERE TRYING TO.
A: No.
Q: WELL, BERMUDA'S NOT PART OF THE UNITED STATES THE LAST TIME I LOOKED.
A: No. I was going to be somewhere in the United States. I don't know where my friends were taking me.
Q: WELL, YOUR PILOTS HAD CHARTERED A COURSE FOR BERMUDA. DOES THAT SURPRISE YOU?
A: I don't know. I had no idea where they were taking me. I had only this much idea that they want me to be in a safe place and ready to come back at the moment when the court wants me.
Q: OSHO, YOU HAVE A WAY OF ALWAYS CLAIMING IGNORANCE WHENEVER YOU GET INTO A LITTLE BIT OF A TIGHT CORNER. YOU CLAIM YOU KNEW NOTHING ABOUT WHAT YOUR FOLLOWERS WERE DOING BECAUSE YOU HAD BEEN IN A SELF-IMPOSED SILENCE. YOU ONLY HAD CONTACT WITH ONE WOMAN, AND NOW SHE HAS FLED. YOU CLAIMED YOU KNEW NOTHING ABOUT WHAT YOUR FOLLOWERS WERE DOING. THEN WHEN IT BECAME CONVENIENT YOU CLAIMED THAT YOURS WAS NOT A RELIGION.
A: That's exactly how I am, and that's how I function. It is not something that I am playing with. This is how I function.
Q: EVEN YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THAT IT MUST SEEM SOMEWHAT STRANGE TO THOSE OF US WHO ARE NOT PART OF YOUR GROUP, WHO ARE NOT AMONG YOUR FOLLOWERS, THAT WHENEVER YOU GET INTO....
A: I don't care about anybody. I simply stating the truth.
Q: AND THE TRUTH IS WHAT?
A: Truth is this: that I had no idea where they were taking me. And I had not even asked them. I was simply sleeping in the plane, and even from Rajneeshpuram the phone had come to the plane, but it was cut by the politicians somewhere on the way, and it never reached to us. Otherwise we would have come back immediately.
Q: NOW THAT THINGS TO A CERTAIN DEGREE ARE, HAVE BEEN TAKEN OUT OF YOUR HANDS. IF YOU HAD THE OPPORTUNITY NOW TO GO WHEREVER YOU WANTED, WHERE WOULD YOU LIKE TO GO?
A: Nothing has been taken out of my hands.
Q: WELL YOU'RE IN JAIL.
A: That does not matter.
Q: WELL IT MATTERS IN SO FAR AS YOUR FREEDOM IS CONCERNED.
A: I (inaudible)
Q: IT MATTERS IN SO FAR AS YOUR ABILITY TO MOVE AROUND IS CONCERNED.
A: Nothing to be worried -- it is question only of few days -- and a little bit of my health will suffer, but it does not matter at all. My fight will continue.
Q: WHERE?
A: It is continuing here, and I will suing back in Oregon, and fighting.
Q: JOINING US NOW, LIVE FROM OUR AFFILIATE, KATU, IN PORTLAND, OREGON IS MARK GREENFIELD, ATTORNEY FOR 1000 FRIENDS OF OREGON, AN ENVIRONMENTAL GROUP THAT HAS BEEN SUING THE RAJNEESH SECT ON THE GROUNDS OF ILLEGAL LAND USE.
MR. GREENFIELD: WHAT'S GOING ON HERE?
MG: I THINK WHEN SHEELA LEFT OREGON A MONTH OR SO AGO, THERE WAS A LOT OF SPECULATION THAT IT MIGHT BE IN PREPARATION FOR THE OSHO HIMSELF TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY.... THAT SHE'S SETTING THE GROUNDWORK FOR HIM LEAVING THE COUNTRY.
Q: OSHO: WERE YOU IN FACT OFF TO MEET SHEELA AND...?
A: This man is simply speaking a lie. And these people are not one thousand friends of Oregon. These are the enemies of Oregon. And I have no intention to leave America till I am victorious in my fight.
Q: OSHO, IT STRETCHES CREDULITY THAT A MAN WOULD GET ON AN AIRCRAFT AND NOT KNOW WHERE HE'S GOING.
A: I... depend on my people for almost everything.
Q: WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOUR PEOPLE? -- YOUR FOLLOWERS?
A: Yes.
Q: YES. YOUR FOLLOWERS?
A: Yes.
Q: IN THE CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH MY FRIEND CHARLIE GIBSON LESS THAN A MONTH AGO. YOU SWORE UP AND DOWN YOU HAD NO FOLLOWERS.
A: You are calling them followers.
Q: I ASKED YOU TWICE. THAT'S WHY I REPEATED IT.
A: You asked me, and I said yes, because those people think them followers. I think myself they are my friends.
Q: WELL IT'S MORE CONVENIENT TO HAVE THEM AS YOUR FRIENDS WHEN IN FACT YOU'RE TRYING TO DENY THAT WHAT YOU HAVE IS ANY KIND OF A RELIGION.
A: That is no problem. As far as I am concerned they're my friends. And there is no religion.
MG: (PRECIS) WHEN RAJNEESHEES ARRIVED IN OREGON THEY WERE NOT A RELIGION, BUT LATER SAID THEY WERE A RELIGION AS PART OF THEIR DEFENCE AGAINST THE 1000 FRIENDS' LAWSUIT. LATER THEY SAID THEY WERE NOT A RELIGION, PERHAPS IN DEFENCE AGAINST THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S LAWSUIT ON MIXING CHURCH AND STATE.
A: There's one thing you are forgetting: that I was in that whole period in isolation and in silence. So whatever happened in that period, I am not responsible.
Q: I KNOW, YOU ARE ALSO THE SAME MAN WHO WAS ASLEEP WHEN YOU GOT ON THE PLANE AND YOU DIDN'T KNOW ...
A: Yes.
Q: WHERE YOU WERE GOING BUT IT ALWAYS SEEMS...
A: Yes.
Q: AS THOUGH YOU ARE CONVENIENTLY UNCONSCIOUS OR OUT OF THE WAY WHEN THINGS ARE GOING ON ABOUT WHICH YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW....
A: That's how I am.
I was in isolation, and I was in silence, and I had not created the religion. The moment I came out of silence, I finished that religion.
Q: SO YOU HAVE NO RELIGION, YOU ARE NOT A LEADER OF ANY GROUP...
A: No, I am not a leader; I am a friend and a guide.
Q: A FRIEND AND A GUIDE WHO HAS RECEIVED A GREAT DEAL OF MONEY FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT HIS FOLLOWERS?
A: Yes, but they are my friends, and I can receive....
Q: NINETY ROLLS ROYCES SEEM A LITTLE BIT EXCESSIVE EVEN FOR A VERY CLOSE FRIENDSHIP.
A: Nothing is excessive to me. Even nine hundred will not be excessive.
Q: WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO NOW? YOU'RE GOING TO GO BACK TO OREGON?
A: I'm going back to Oregon to fight....
Q: WHAT ABOUT YOUR FRIENDS... YOU THINK THAT THEY WILL BE...
A: They are going to be there and they are going to increase. Every day more people are coming.
Q: OSHO, WHAT YOU THINK YOUR FRIENDS, YOUR FOLLOWERS, ARE GOING TO DO NOW?
A: They are becoming stronger. Whatever has happened to me has helped the movement of my friends around the world. And I am absolutely certain about being victorious in the courts of America, because I trust in the American constitution, and I love the people of America, and I feel that America is the only hope for the whole human race. So I am not going to leave this country. I am going to find for American constitution against American politicians. They are prostituting the democracy and the constitution both.
Q: AND WHAT ABOUT YOUR FRIENDS AND FOLLOWERS? WHAT DO YOU THINK THEY'RE GOING TO DO?
A: They are going to fight with me for the constitution and for the democracy.
Q: I MUST CONFESS YOU STILL HAVE ME SOMEWHAT CONFUSED. IT'S NOT A RELIGION, THEY'RE NOT YOUR FOLLOWERS, IT'S A COLLECTION OF FRIENDS, AND YOU'RE GOING TO BE FIGHTING FOR THE CONSTITUTION, THAT'S IT?
A: Yes, they are my friends. Just the idea is new... idea is new to you -- that's why you feel confused. If they are followers then you don't feel confused.
Q: I CERTAINLY DON'T HAVE FRIENDS WHO ARE THRUSTING DIAMOND-ENCRUSTED WATCHES ON ME OR ROLLS ROYCES ON ME.
A:... you are not fortunate, what can I do? I am fortunate. That's the meaning of the word 'bhagwan': the blessed one.