[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]
INTERVIEW WITH PETER SANT(?), NIGHTWATCH TV, USA
OSHO:*...(several inaudible words) so many threatening phone calls coming that my friends thought that it is better for three, four days I should be out of Rajneeshpuram. And as the court wanted to see me they could fly me back immediately. That was their idea. I did not know where they are taking me. And if they had simply said that, "The court needs You there," we would have turned the....
Q:* YOU'RE SAYING THAT YOU WERE UNAWARE OF THE SEALED INDICTMENT....
A:* Absolutely. Absolutely, because they never informed me anything about it.
Q:* IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THE INDICTMENTS, WHY DID YOU LEAVE THE COMMUNE IN THE MANNER THAT YOU DID? PEOPLE ARE SAYING THAT YOU IN A WAY SECRETLY LEFT.
A:* No. Not secretly. Not secretly. I openly left. Even there was a press reporter standing when I left. And I left in the open daylight, at five o'clock. There was no question of secrecy.
They wanted.... The friends who were taking me, they wanted to keep it secret so nobody knows where they are taking me. Otherwise the same problem will arise. And I will be recognized anywhere.
But there was no question of leaving the country. I was fighting. The whole problem was that they were not giving me the green card and I have been fighting for it.
But the way they have behaved with me has been so disappointing, particularly the U.S. Marshal's department people, that I don't want now to stay in this country.
Q:* YOU WANT TO LEAVE?
A:* I want to leave.
Q:* WHERE WOULD YOU GO?
A:* I can go to my own country.
Q:* YOU MEAN GO BACK TO INDIA?
A:* Yes. I can go back to India, or anywhere else. I can manage anywhere else. If any other country is ready to take me and my commune, I can go there. Otherwise, my commune is already there in India, where I was before. I can immediately move without any trouble.
Q:* ARE YOU SAYING THEN THAT REGARDLESS OF WHAT HAPPENS IN TERMS OF THESE CHARGES AGAINST YOU, YOU WILL LEAVE THE UNITED STATES?
A:* Yes, because I... you can see me. This type of behavior.... I don't think that this country is for me. This type of behavior is not... it has been really disappointing.
I love American constitution, I love the people of the country, but it seems the bureaucracy and the politicians are not what they should be.
Here I have been treated by the sheriff and the nurses very humanely and lovingly. So I love the people, there is no question.
But this kind of treatment... and then they chained my legs when they brought from the other place to this place, chained my hands, chained my hands with the legs. Even movement was difficult. That was hurting my back. I told them that, "You are unnecessarily hurting me." And I have not committed any crime.
Q:* BY DECIDING TO LEAVE, AREN'T YOU GIVING IN?
A:* No.
Q:* ISN'T THE OTHER SIDE WINNING?
A:* No. Not the other side. Just I don't accept any kind of uncivilized behavior.
I was fighting with a democratic government in a democratic way and I would have loved to fight up to the Supreme Court. My whole life, there was no problem in it.
But if this kind of behavior happens, then this is not fight. They will kill me. This will not be a fight.
Q:* DO YOU FEEL THAT THAT IS SOMEONE'S ULTIMATE GOAL, IS TO SEE YOU DEAD?
A:* It seems, because what is the reason to keep me here for three days? The simple thing was that if Oregon government wants me, I was ready to go immediately. My planes are standing there on the airport.
ANNOUNCER:* BHAGWAN SHREE RAJNEESH. WE'LL HEAR MORE WHEN WE CONTINUE.... WE RETURN TO OUR INTERVIEW WITH THE BHAGWAN SHREE RAJNEESH. HE SPOKE WITH CORRESPONDENT PETER VAN SANT* TUESDAY NIGHT IN A NORTH CAROLINA JAIL. Q:* IF YOU WERE CONVICTED ON THIS THIRTY-FIVE-COUNT INDICTMENT AND WERE TO RECEIVE THE MAXIMUM SENTENCE, YOU COULD FACE A POSSIBILITY OF ONE HUNDRED SEVENTY-FIVE YEARS....
A:* That's okay. That's okay. That is no problem. If -- that is a big if, because I have not committed any crime so there is no question of any punishment.
They are saying that I have committed fraud. They are saying that my health is just an excuse, that I was not sick. And they have collected the whole history of my sickness, eight hundred pages -- certificates from all the doctors who have treated me, in India and from outside.
And I myself present that you can create... my illness and sickness is not something that is curable. Just a controlled atmosphere is needed, and I will be okay. If the atmosphere is removed, just bring a little perfume to my nose and you will see that I will go into a asthma attack. So what more proof you need? So they cannot prove that I have come on false grounds.
Q:* BHAGWAN, YOU HAVE BEEN ACCUSED IN THESE INDICTMENTS OF SETTING UP PHONY MARRIAGES SO THAT FOREIGNERS WHO ARE MEMBERS OF YOUR COMMUNE CAN STAY IN THE UNITED STATES.
A:* That's also absolutely absurd, because I don't see sannyasins. I don't even meet them personally. I don't know even their names. Except my personal secretary, I don't see anybody.
Q:* DO YOU ARRANGE MARRIAGES?
A:* No. There is no question. And I don't know who is married to whom. I don't bother.
Q:* HOW WOULD YOU CHARACTERIZE THEM, THESE INDICTMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE AGAINST YOU?
A:* Just they don't want me here. And they should have told simply that they don't want me here. I am a very straightforward man. There is no problem. If they don't want me here, then I don't want to be an unnecessary unwelcome guest. I would have left. There is no need to make it such a political and legal and unnecessary wastage of time for me and for them.
They don't want me and the commune. They should have told. They can say it right now. There is no need for all this process.
And they cannot prove, because I have not suggested anybody to get married to anybody.
Q:* WOULD YOU SAY THEN THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS... HAS A VENDETTA AGAINST YOU?
A:* Certainly. Because I have been inviting the governor, the attorney general -- both have been talking against me, both have been creating in Oregon antagonism towards the commune -- that, "You come and You see that they are not doing anything against you. And we are absolutely non-political. We have no interest in your politics."
I have been telling that, "If you don't want, you simply say it straightforward that `We don't want you here."' We can move anywhere. Otherwise, I have the place already in India. Here we came only because my health.
This place was suitable, absolutely suitable. It is a desert. No humidity. It is dry and cool both, which I needed. And it is so big -- one hundred twenty-six square miles -- that there is no neighbor near. Twenty miles away the closest neighbor is.
So no problem from neighbors. They can create fire, smoke, anything. And that can be disturbing.
Q:* IF I MAY ASK ONE SMALL QUESTION. WHAT WILL BECOME OF THAT COMMUNITY? WILL IT BE... WHEN YOU LEAVE WILL IT BE BULLDOZED, WILL IT....
A:* No.
Q:* WILL IT BE AS THOUGH IT WAS NEVER THERE?
A:* No. I will sell the commune. We have purchased it and we have put money in it. It is perfectly a beautiful modern town, fully air conditioned, the whole commune. And every house has all modern cap....*
Q:* ONE LAST QUESTION IF I MAY. DO YOU HAVE ANY MESSAGE FOR YOUR FOLLOWERS OUT THERE WHO UNDOUBTEDLY ARE GOING TO BE SURPRISED AND POSSIBLY A LITTLE SHOCKED AT YOUR ANNOUNCEMENT THAT YOU WILL LEAVE THE COUNTRY? WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY...?
A:* No, I have a message to them that whenever I leave they will leave with me. I will not leave them behind me. They all will be going with me. I will make arrangements for them before I leave. There is no problem.
Osho's Commentary
INTERVIEW WITH PETER SANT(?), NIGHTWATCH TV, USA
OSHO:*...(several inaudible words) so many threatening phone calls coming that my friends thought that it is better for three, four days I should be out of Rajneeshpuram. And as the court wanted to see me they could fly me back immediately. That was their idea. I did not know where they are taking me. And if they had simply said that, "The court needs You there," we would have turned the....
Q:* YOU'RE SAYING THAT YOU WERE UNAWARE OF THE SEALED INDICTMENT....
A:* Absolutely. Absolutely, because they never informed me anything about it.
Q:* IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THE INDICTMENTS, WHY DID YOU LEAVE THE COMMUNE IN THE MANNER THAT YOU DID? PEOPLE ARE SAYING THAT YOU IN A WAY SECRETLY LEFT.
A:* No. Not secretly. Not secretly. I openly left. Even there was a press reporter standing when I left. And I left in the open daylight, at five o'clock. There was no question of secrecy.
They wanted.... The friends who were taking me, they wanted to keep it secret so nobody knows where they are taking me. Otherwise the same problem will arise. And I will be recognized anywhere.
But there was no question of leaving the country. I was fighting. The whole problem was that they were not giving me the green card and I have been fighting for it.
But the way they have behaved with me has been so disappointing, particularly the U.S. Marshal's department people, that I don't want now to stay in this country.
Q:* YOU WANT TO LEAVE?
A:* I want to leave.
Q:* WHERE WOULD YOU GO?
A:* I can go to my own country.
Q:* YOU MEAN GO BACK TO INDIA?
A:* Yes. I can go back to India, or anywhere else. I can manage anywhere else. If any other country is ready to take me and my commune, I can go there. Otherwise, my commune is already there in India, where I was before. I can immediately move without any trouble.
Q:* ARE YOU SAYING THEN THAT REGARDLESS OF WHAT HAPPENS IN TERMS OF THESE CHARGES AGAINST YOU, YOU WILL LEAVE THE UNITED STATES?
A:* Yes, because I... you can see me. This type of behavior.... I don't think that this country is for me. This type of behavior is not... it has been really disappointing.
I love American constitution, I love the people of the country, but it seems the bureaucracy and the politicians are not what they should be.
Here I have been treated by the sheriff and the nurses very humanely and lovingly. So I love the people, there is no question.
But this kind of treatment... and then they chained my legs when they brought from the other place to this place, chained my hands, chained my hands with the legs. Even movement was difficult. That was hurting my back. I told them that, "You are unnecessarily hurting me." And I have not committed any crime.
Q:* BY DECIDING TO LEAVE, AREN'T YOU GIVING IN?
A:* No.
Q:* ISN'T THE OTHER SIDE WINNING?
A:* No. Not the other side. Just I don't accept any kind of uncivilized behavior.
I was fighting with a democratic government in a democratic way and I would have loved to fight up to the Supreme Court. My whole life, there was no problem in it.
But if this kind of behavior happens, then this is not fight. They will kill me. This will not be a fight.
Q:* DO YOU FEEL THAT THAT IS SOMEONE'S ULTIMATE GOAL, IS TO SEE YOU DEAD?
A:* It seems, because what is the reason to keep me here for three days? The simple thing was that if Oregon government wants me, I was ready to go immediately. My planes are standing there on the airport.
ANNOUNCER:* BHAGWAN SHREE RAJNEESH. WE'LL HEAR MORE WHEN WE CONTINUE.... WE RETURN TO OUR INTERVIEW WITH THE BHAGWAN SHREE RAJNEESH. HE SPOKE WITH CORRESPONDENT PETER VAN SANT* TUESDAY NIGHT IN A NORTH CAROLINA JAIL.
Q:* IF YOU WERE CONVICTED ON THIS THIRTY-FIVE-COUNT INDICTMENT AND WERE TO RECEIVE THE MAXIMUM SENTENCE, YOU COULD FACE A POSSIBILITY OF ONE HUNDRED SEVENTY-FIVE YEARS....
A:* That's okay. That's okay. That is no problem. If -- that is a big if, because I have not committed any crime so there is no question of any punishment.
They are saying that I have committed fraud. They are saying that my health is just an excuse, that I was not sick. And they have collected the whole history of my sickness, eight hundred pages -- certificates from all the doctors who have treated me, in India and from outside.
And I myself present that you can create... my illness and sickness is not something that is curable. Just a controlled atmosphere is needed, and I will be okay. If the atmosphere is removed, just bring a little perfume to my nose and you will see that I will go into a asthma attack. So what more proof you need?
So they cannot prove that I have come on false grounds.
Q:* BHAGWAN, YOU HAVE BEEN ACCUSED IN THESE INDICTMENTS OF SETTING UP PHONY MARRIAGES SO THAT FOREIGNERS WHO ARE MEMBERS OF YOUR COMMUNE CAN STAY IN THE UNITED STATES.
A:* That's also absolutely absurd, because I don't see sannyasins. I don't even meet them personally. I don't know even their names. Except my personal secretary, I don't see anybody.
Q:* DO YOU ARRANGE MARRIAGES?
A:* No. There is no question. And I don't know who is married to whom. I don't bother.
Q:* HOW WOULD YOU CHARACTERIZE THEM, THESE INDICTMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE AGAINST YOU?
A:* Just they don't want me here. And they should have told simply that they don't want me here. I am a very straightforward man. There is no problem. If they don't want me here, then I don't want to be an unnecessary unwelcome guest. I would have left. There is no need to make it such a political and legal and unnecessary wastage of time for me and for them.
They don't want me and the commune. They should have told. They can say it right now. There is no need for all this process.
And they cannot prove, because I have not suggested anybody to get married to anybody.
Q:* WOULD YOU SAY THEN THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS... HAS A VENDETTA AGAINST YOU?
A:* Certainly. Because I have been inviting the governor, the attorney general -- both have been talking against me, both have been creating in Oregon antagonism towards the commune -- that, "You come and You see that they are not doing anything against you. And we are absolutely non-political. We have no interest in your politics."
I have been telling that, "If you don't want, you simply say it straightforward that `We don't want you here."' We can move anywhere. Otherwise, I have the place already in India. Here we came only because my health.
This place was suitable, absolutely suitable. It is a desert. No humidity. It is dry and cool both, which I needed. And it is so big -- one hundred twenty-six square miles -- that there is no neighbor near. Twenty miles away the closest neighbor is.
So no problem from neighbors. They can create fire, smoke, anything. And that can be disturbing.
Q:* IF I MAY ASK ONE SMALL QUESTION. WHAT WILL BECOME OF THAT COMMUNITY? WILL IT BE... WHEN YOU LEAVE WILL IT BE BULLDOZED, WILL IT....
A:* No.
Q:* WILL IT BE AS THOUGH IT WAS NEVER THERE?
A:* No. I will sell the commune. We have purchased it and we have put money in it. It is perfectly a beautiful modern town, fully air conditioned, the whole commune. And every house has all modern cap....*
Q:* ONE LAST QUESTION IF I MAY. DO YOU HAVE ANY MESSAGE FOR YOUR FOLLOWERS OUT THERE WHO UNDOUBTEDLY ARE GOING TO BE SURPRISED AND POSSIBLY A LITTLE SHOCKED AT YOUR ANNOUNCEMENT THAT YOU WILL LEAVE THE COUNTRY? WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY...?
A:* No, I have a message to them that whenever I leave they will leave with me. I will not leave them behind me. They all will be going with me. I will make arrangements for them before I leave. There is no problem.