Chapter #3 Press Conferences #3

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewers' remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

INTERVIEWS WITH SUGERMAN, FROM KCBS RADIO; BILL CROWN FROM THE ASSOCIATED PRESS, PORTLAND; BILL BAXTER, NBC NETWORK NEWS; DIRK MADISON, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE; RICHARD DRAPER, KOIN TV FROM PORTLAND; MIKE HOUSICAL, THE GLOBE, USA; THE DAILY TELEGRAPH, SYDNEY, AUSTRALIA; AND THE STAR, LONDON, UK; ROGER WORTHINGTON, CHICAGO TRIBUNE, CHICAGO, ILLINOIS; WALDEN KIRSCH, KGW TV, PORTLAND; SWAMI VIDEHA, PANORAMA AND EXPRESSO, ITALY
INTERVIEW WITH SUGERMAN, FROM KCBS RADIO

QUESTION: I'D APPRECIATE IF YOU COULD, A SHORT ANSWER TO THE QUESTION... YOU'VE INDICATED THAT SHEELA WOULD BE WELCOME BACK IF SHE DECIDED TO COME BACK, ALTHOUGH YOU'VE ALSO ACCUSED HER OF SOME RATHER SERIOUS CRIMES, INCLUDING THOSE AGAINST YOUR NEIGHBORS HERE. AND I WAS WONDERING IF SHE CAME BACK AND WAS CONVICTED OF SOME OF THE CRIMES YOU'VE CHARGED HER WITH, HOW COULD THE LOCAL PEOPLE AROUND HERE TRUST YOU AND YOUR PEOPLE NOT TO DO THAT SORT OF THING AGAIN, IF YOU COULD LIVE IN PEACEFUL COEXISTENCE WITH YOUR NEIGHBORS AFTER THIS INCIDENT?

A: Our neighbors have to understand our way of life and of our way at looking at things. For example, I accuse Sheela for many wrong things that she and her group did. Still I love her, her group, and no action can make the being of the person corrupted. Action is a small thing, being is a huge potential. You do something wrong; that does not mean you are a wrong individual. We hate your wrong act, but we don't hate you.

So if she comes back she will be welcomed. She will not be given the power she had and we will not prevent the legal processes against her. We will help the law in every possible way to find all criminal acts that she has done, but that has nothing to do with our love for a human being. Howsoever criminal a human being is, after all he is a human being. And acts are small things.

And it is a well-known fact that even Judas who sold Jesus for thirty pieces of silver, felt guilty and within twenty-four hours committed suicide. Now his suicide Christians don't talk about, because his suicide is immensely significant. He is simply destroying his whole life out of guilt. And a person who can feel guilty... and he is confessing by his suicide his guilt. I have immense love for Judas. He was a man of conscience.

People commit mistake. It is just human to err. My position is: we will accept them with love, but we will not protect them against the law. We will help the law to put their actions right. So it looks a little complicated, but this is how my approach to life is. I condemn always the action and never the person. The person has always the possibility to change.

Perhaps Sheela right now is repenting what she has done. She had taken almost twenty peoples group from here. One of them has written from halfway, she is here back, she was afraid that she will not be accepted. We said, "That is not the question. You are not the problem... your action... And if you feel that it was wrong and if you are ready to accept its consequences courageously, our love is for you, but our love is not for anything antilegal. So if law finds you, and we will... if we find, deliver you to the law.

And those who have been phoning, the mayor of the city, Krishna Deva, phoned and he was crying on the phone that it was not right to leave. My people informed me. I said, "If he wants to come back, this is his home, but make it clear that anything that he has committed against law, we will not support and we will expose him to the law. So that he has to decide.

The situation has completely changed. The people who were putting the whole community against law have left. It feels cleaner. And if those twenty people come by themselves or are brought by the police back to America, our love for them will remain the same. But what they have done they have to suffer the consequences of it. It is their action and the result has to be accepted. I want to inform the government that we will be now in a strange position. We are not against the state, against the government. The group who was against has left. Now we will be all for the state and for the government and for the law even against those people. We do not want to support any illegality.

And if we are against in any cases fighting government, it is because only they are going against the basic constitutional rights of human beings. We are always for American constitution. So who commits the crime does not matter. But crime is an act, a small thing in the big life of a being. For that small act the whole being cannot be condemned.

That's why I am against death sentence. A man has murdered somebody and you murder the man! Then the society is committing the same immoral, inhuman act as the person. But because the society has power and the courts and the law, so it can continue. The best thing would be that if you find that somebody has murdered he should be given to the psychiatrist, psychologist. He should be put in a mental institute. Something is wrong with the man, but his dignity as a human being should not be humiliated. He should be cured. He is sick.

Do you know that in the middle ages a madman was thought to be a criminal and the only cure was to beat him, to take his blood out, so much so that he will become very weak. Naturally when he becomes very weak his madness also becomes very weak. They thought this is a cure. Now we know madness is not a crime, it is a sickness.

My understanding is that all criminal acts are sick and the person needs our sympathy, not our revenge, otherwise we are no more different than the person. He needs sympathy. You cannot by putting him into a electric chair bring the dead man back whom he has murdered, so what is the point? It has been said that this is to teach others not to murder. That is simply stupid.

Because in England, just hundred years before, every thief was hanged in the main square of the city, naked, and beaten. And a crowd of thousands will gather to look at him. This was thought to be a teaching lesson to the people, that if they do stealing, this will be the result. But finally they had to stop it because they found that people became so interested in looking that other people were cutting their pockets. What teaching? You are teaching by beating a thief and thieves are having a great day because all the crowd was so much interested in the kill, the punishment they forget all about their pockets. Only when they looked afterwards their pockets were gone. So it was not only one pocket that was stolen, many pockets were stolen. So many people were doing stealing exactly on the spot. That's why the practice was stopped.

And my feeling is all our legal punishments are of the same kind. They don't stop anybody, they don't change the person, in fact they make the person more criminal. If you send a person for five years to jail there he finds more expert criminals. You are sending him to a university of crime. And after five years when he comes out, he is more clever, more cunning, and it will be more difficult to catch hold of him.

My approach is, a crime is something wrong with the psychology of the man. He should be treated just like any sick person. And unless you feel that he is healthy he should be kept isolated from the society, but no disrespect to his personality. It has to be made clear to him that "Your act is just because of something is wrong with your mind and we are trying to change it."

So these people come here. I am perfectly available. They will not get their posts back, but they can be part of the commune. But the commune is not going to protect them against law. On the contrary, the commune is going to help the law against them. But we will plead to the courts that "These people are mentally sick and punishment is not enough; it does not change anybody. Send them to psychiatric institutions, treat them."
So it is a little bit complex, but life is complex.

INTERVIEW WITH BILL CROWN FROM THE ASSOCIATED PRESS, PORTLAND
Q: OSHO, I'M ON KIND OF A TIGHT DEADLINE IF YOU COULD GIVE ME A FAIRLY BRIEF ANSWER I WOULD APPRECIATE IT. I'M WONDERING WHETHER THE HEAVY SECURITY CAN END NOW, IF YOU CAN DISARM RAJNEESHPURAM?

A: No!

Q: WHY NOT?

A: You want a small answers? Then just no!

Q: THAT'S IT? THANK YOU.
INTERVIEW WITH BILL BAXTER, NBC NETWORK NEWS.
Q: WOULD YOU PLEASE ASSESS THE DAMAGE CAUSED TO YOUR COMMUNITY BY THE REVELATIONS OVER SHEELA AND ALSO IF YOU COULD TELL ME WHAT STEPS YOU ARE TAKING TO INSURE THAT SOMETHING LIKE THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN AGAIN?

A: It could happen because I was silent in all these three and half years. Since I came to America I have remained silent, in isolation. That's why the whole thing happened. Otherwise thirty years in my life, nothing like this has happened before. So it was simply the gap that Sheela unconsciously took advantage of. She was my secretary and when I had chosen her my secretary she was just a simple human, loving being; no politics in her mind, no power tricks. But three and half year remaining the head of five thousand sannyasins, millions of dollars...

Power is a very significant factor. It can bring your unconscious desires to the conscious level. It does not corrupt you, it just brings your corruption to reality. Without power you cannot do anything; with power you can do anything. And that's what happened.

Now I have decided not to stop speaking and be direct in communion with my people, as I have been always. And there has never been any problem.

Secondly, I have taken many steps because in my absence -- I may die tomorrow -- and the same thing can happen again. So I am decentralizing power. It will not be in one man's hand. There will be several corporations of equal status, several presidents of equal status and there will be corporations completely free and independent from the religious foundation. For example, university should be an completely independent organization on its own. Decentralization of power, changing the people more often so they don't start taking their position granted, as if it is a life-long position. It is better to have some difficulty... because a person in a year becomes acquainted, capable, doing better... but I would like to take that risk, giving the position to a new person, and the old relaxes back, takes any other job in the commune. So it will be a kind of rotation and a short period of power which you cannot corrupt the commune, because you know within six months you will be part of the commune and somebody else will be in your place.

And I am making my people more aware, for the simple reason because my teaching is of doubt, skepticism, agnosticism, it is not based on belief, not on surrender, not on faith. But because I was silent, this is what they were told, that to create the commune you have to surrender yourself. And Sheela is Osho's representative and whatsoever she says, she is the spokesman of Osho. Now there is going to be no spokesman for me. As long as I am alive, I am my own spokesman.

And I don't hold any position; I have never been in any position. I am not even a sannyasin. I am not member of the commune. I am just a guest, they love me, they can ask for advice; that's all. To follow it or not to follow is their business. I never even ask what happened to my advice.

And my whole insistence is to be very doubtful, very skeptical and always remember that the human tendency is to exploit other human beings. So anything you feel can exploit you, any order that is given to you and you feel it is inhuman, you refuse point blank. For example, Sheela was trying to kill people. She managed to kill one person and the people simply trusted that whatever she is saying they have just to surrender. They behaved like Christians, Hindus, Mohammedans... not like my people. So it has made me aware that I have to awaken my people and make them more individual, more free and do things only when they appeal to their intelligence, to their rationality. And once they do anything on their own intelligence they are responsible for it, they cannot dump it on anybody else, because they had the chance to say no.

So it will take few days, but I will make it defused... and it is not going to be difficult. We have a very intelligent group of people. The only problem that created the whole thing was that I became almost an invisible God to them and Sheela became the pope. I have never made her a pope, so it is not difficult at all. And people have to be trained for democratic values and respect those democratic values.

Anything that has happened in these three years, efforts to kill my physician, my caretaker, my dentist, if the people were a little alert and not gullible, they would have refused, or they would have informed the police. Much poison was asked from the pharmacist here to order, but he seems to be a man of understanding, he refused. He said, "This much poison is of no use." But he suspected for what they are ordering so much poison? But this was enough. If he was a little more alert, he should have reported the police immediately. Although he refused, but he did not report anybody. And that poison they were ordering, and they managed to get it from somewhere, to poison the Dalles water system. Now this is simply ugly, sickening.

They brought three thousand street people... And to me they lied. Sheela said, that "We have from the festival surplus money and it will be a good humanitarian act to have a share home program. I said, "If you have more money, then it is perfectly good." But later on I discovered that it was not share home program, that it was an effort to take over the county. And I am absolutely against dirty politics, I don't want my people to be involved in politics in any way.

Just this morning I have told my people, that change the name of City of Rajneesh back to Antelope. There is no need. Antelope is perfectly beautiful name. And why hurt people unnecessarily, psychologically? And I have made it clear that if people from Antelope are ready to buy all the properties that foundation owns in Antelope... We have purchased it from them, we have improved the property, they were all dilapidated old houses, we have renovated them. In four years time the prices have gone up, but I have said that we will give those properties on the same rate as we had purchased them. So just anybody who wants to take those properties can take and I can move my people here. There is no need for my people to live there. We have such a big place, one hundred twenty-six square miles, three times bigger than New York, we can create three New Yorks here, although we are not going to create, because to me cities like New York are just ugly, against nature. We will make small cottages around the mountains, hills, around the lakes, so people can live in harmony with nature. And we are ready to leave Antelope.

And anything that this group has done which is illegal, if it can be undone, we are ready to undo it. And now it should be made clear to the government of Oregon and to the federal government that our basic enemy is the same, this group of a dozen or so people who have been trying to create a fascist state, we will supply everything that we can find, but the government has to be helpful to us and their hostility should not be for the innocent sannyasins and the commune. The people they were hostile are gone. They should be after them, they should put Interpol after them, they should be brought back in chains and we are getting sannyasins now who are eyewitnesses of their crimes. If the government is willing to give protection to these eyewitnesses, more eyewitnesses will be coming forward and there is going to be no problem.

But one thing is certain that now there is no question of any hostility between Rajneeshpuram and Oregon. It was a small group who was powerful, who was creating the hostility. And this is a simple fascist tactics, if you want to remain in power, go on creating more and more phobia, fear, paranoia, that everybody is against you. And they had created it, but I don't see that everybody is against us. The only people from the outside I have come across are the journalists and these are the people who are most skeptical, intelligent, not gullible, yet I have found them very human, very loving. So I don't think everybody is against us; there is no reason to be against us. Yes, this group was doing things that they may have created an antagonism, an hostility. Now all that hostility should disappear without any problem.

And we can help the state of Oregon in many ways. We can make this place one of the world's best holiday resort. Already every year twenty thousand people are coming here for annual festival, staying for one month. And all the year round thousands of people coming and going. We have created a great source of income for the state. We have created tourism. The government should be a little helpful. We can make it one of the best and beautiful health resort in the whole of America.

But strange that we invite them -- they don't come. Perhaps this gang of fascists was a barrier, but now there is no barrier. We invite the governor, we invite the attorney general to see our people and to see what we have done in a desert, where there was growing nothing. Now five thousand people are living self-sufficiently, growing their food, their vegetables, their fruits, their milk products and making the place as green as possible. Just a little help from the government and we can make it a lush green paradise.

And there is no possibility of happening it again, at least while I am alive. And the Oregonian air and the earth have fallen in love with me. My health has never been better in twenty years as it is today; I am going to live really long.
Thank you.

INTERVIEW WITH DIRK MADISON, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE.

A: Hi.

Q: OSHO, I HAVE TWO QUESTIONS AND I'D APPRECIATE BRIEF ANSWERS, IF YOU CAN DO THAT. FIRST, HAVE YOU HAD ANY CONTACT WITH SHEELA SINCE SHE LEFT?

A: No.

Q: SECONDLY, CAN YOU TELL US HOW AND WHEN YOU FIRST HEARD OF SHEELA'S CRIMES, AND YOUR INITIAL EMOTIONS WHEN YOU FOUND OUT?

A: Your question shows you don't know me at all. I don't have any emotional reactions to anything. Whatever happens I take it rejoicingly. Even if death comes, I will meet it with a song and a smile on my lips.

And the departure of this group was not bad at all. For the first time the whole commune, including me, feeling a freshness of air, a freedom, as if we had planned to make a meditation camp and she has turned it into a concentration camp. The moment the commune heard it they were so rejoiced that they started dancing in the streets and singing for hours that now there is no concentration camp and again we can go to our basic idea, meditation. So it has been a blessing.

INTERVIEW WITH RICHARD DRAPER, KOIN TV FROM PORTLAND.
Q: I'LL ALSO SEEK AN ABRIDGED SHORT ANSWER IF I COULD. BEFORE SHE LEFT IN NEWS CONFERENCES YOU SAID THAT SHEELA WAS NOT TOUGH ENOUGH IN HER COMMENTS TO OREGONIANS, ABOUT GOVERNMENT. YOU YOURSELF HAD SOME RATHER STRONG WORDS OF CRITICISM ABOUT OREGONIANS, ABOUT JUDGES, POLITICIANS. SHEELA LEFT AND NOW YOU'RE HOLDING YOUR HANDS OUT TO OREGONIANS AND SAYING THAT YOU LOVE THEM ALL, AND THERE SHOULD BE NO REASON FOR HOSTILITY. WAS SHEELA THAT INSTRUMENTAL IN THE FORMATION OF YOUR OPINIONS ABOUT OREGONIANS AND GOVERNMENT?

A: You want small answers, but you forget to ask small questions.

Whatever I have said, that Sheela is not assertive enough stands. I still say she is not assertive enough. In a world full of lies truth needs to be very assertive, only then it can be heard. Jesus says to his disciples, climb the roofs of the houses and shout as loudly as you can, because people are deaf. So when I said that shee is not assertive enough, aggressive enough, this was my meaning. She or anybody who is fighting against lies of all kinds has to be aggressive and has to be assertive and she was not. And what I am saying today is not against her assertions. I am saying that she was doing things underground which are ugly, of which I was not aware. I knew her statements, but I did not know her state of criminal mind.

Secondly, you say that people think I have the insight into people's mind and life. Certainly I have, but future is open. This very moment I can see you, a beautiful man, but next moment you can turn up a murderer. The next moment is unpredictable. And to me this is one of most significant indication of human dignity, that his future is always open. You can read his past, but you cannot determine his future accordingly. There are thousands of changes possible. A murderer can become a saint and a saint can become a rapist. I can see you in this moment, but I am not in agreement that future can be predicted.

If future can be predicted, that means there is no freedom, that man is just a machine. Only machine's future can be predicted, not human beings. Nobody is capable, for the simple reason because future is freedom. Thousands of things you can choose, you can change. Having this idea, and it is a very prevalent idea, that future can be predicted. Astrologers live on it, predictors live on it, prophets live on it. It is really a great source of exploitation. But the reality is that the future is absolutely open. You can become anything, it all depends on thousands of circumstances.

So I cannot predict anybody's future. I can say what he is in the present and I am in tremendous love with the freedom. It is good that future cannot be predicted, otherwise life will lose all meaning. If somebody can give you a chart that "This is your future life, that tomorrow morning you will take coffee and make love to your wife, or somebody elsea wife." And if he can make in detail your whole future, it will be like seeing the same movie again. Whole joy will be gone out of life. Life is an excitement because there is something new happening every moment, something that even you could not have conceived about yourself. This is shear beauty.

And I believe that all these astrologies and star gazers and palmists are just exploiting human weakness. Everybody wants to know about tomorrow, for the simple reason because his today is nothing but misery. He wants some hope for tomorrow. My people are not concerned for tomorrow, because we don't say that tomorrow never comes. We KNOW it never comes. It is always one moment that is given to you, not even two moments together are given to you. When one is gone, then you get another. And it is good, every moment it is fresh. You may become old, you may become conditioned, you may become a bigot, you may have ideologies, but the time flow is absolutely fresh, young and innocent. And I want my people's future existential.

When I had chosen Sheela she was a beautiful person, nice in every way, capable of many things. But future is unpredictable, nothing can be said about it. Still she may change and I hope that she will change. I have received a friends message who had gone there and seen them, they are all in misery. What she can do? What can offer to the people she has taken with herself, hiding in a small village near Zurich, how long? All joy has disappeared. If she has any intelligence and I know she has, she should come back and face any criminal charges that are against her. In fact, just now I have been informed, before I reached you, that the day she left with her group she had received some information from a friend who is in contact with the U.S. Supreme Court chief justice in Oregon and she had received the message that grand jury is to convene soon. That is the reason that she suddenly packed and escaped because these are the twenty people who have escaped, who have done every kind of crime. She knew it, that these will be indicted.

But I will say to her, this is no way to face reality. Come back and face the grand jury and if you have committed any crime, then accept it. There is no need to hide. This will give you respect of the whole community. And you cannot hide, where you can hide? This globe is so small, my sannyasins are everywhere, Interpol may not be very potential, very powerful because I know the Interpol goes on looking for people for five years and cannot find them, but my sannyasins can find these people wherever they are. They have already located, already met them and just not to be identified they have changed their clothes, they are not looking like sannyasins so they are not to be discriminated. But this is not a life. It is better to be behind the bars, but with dignity. This is falling into your own eyes.

I know she is intelligent, she knows she has many abilities and perhaps because of those capacities, abilities and intelligence she turned out to be a fascist. Finding the chance... Because the creative activities can become destructive. It is the same energy. The destructive activities can become creative. It is only a question of directing your energy.

My feeling and understanding is that the politicians who fail become criminals and the criminals who succeed become politicians, presidents, prime ministers. But they belong to the same category, the same energy moving into two directions. At the time of the Watergate when Mao Tse-tung heard that Nixon had resigned, he could not believe it. His statement is significant. He said, "This is strange. Every politician is doing it, just this poor Nixon has been caught." And every politician certainly is doing it, more or less, according to one's capacity.

Seeing that so many people suddenly are under her power -- and I am not speaking, I was speaking only to her -- she was carrying my message. I don't know how much was edited. She was bringing people's information to me; I don't know what was brought to me, what was real, what was unreal. She was telling to the people that, "This is what Osho's message is." And people love me, they have loved me perhaps as no man has ever been loved. One million people around the earth simply ready to do anything for me; their trust is total. She exploited the opportunity. But it is all human, it is nothing very special. Perhaps anybody in her position would have done the same.

I am not angry at her, I am simply sad for her. I would like her to come back home and try to be an ordinary sannyasin without any power and face whatever she has done with dignity. There is nothing wrong in it. Facing it, it can be cleared and she can be again her own self, her own pure, innocent, simple, beautiful person. I will accept her, but I will not protect her any crime.

DRAPER: YOU SAID SHE WAS TOLD ABOUT SOME GRAND JURY INDICTMENTS. WHAT WAS THE SOURCE OF THAT?

A: That I don't know. There is some mediation continuously going on between the government and the city because there are so many conflicts about the legality of the city. It is under litigation. And the government is in a trouble because they incorporated the city, for two years it was legal, and then suddenly it became illegal. In fact, they should be punished. Why they made it legal? And for two years they were giving funds, federal government was giving funds to the city, then suddenly it became illegal. There seems to be some pressure. Perhaps the Christianity pressurizing, perhaps their own politics pressurizing, because to win any election in Oregon all that you have to do is to be against me and my people. That's enough qualification to win the election.

So now they are in a difficulty. They want the case to be decided in a state court which is absolutely absurd. Because when state and city are fighting, when state itself is a client, it cannot be decided in a state court, because the state court belongs to the state, will have all its pressures from the state. We want it to be decided by a federal court. And I don't understand why they are afraid of a federal court. The very fear shows they know that from a federal court they are going to be defeated; their influence won't work.

So they have been sending mediators somehow to find a solution. They are really afraid now to lose a case. They have been losing many cases against the city, because every case is illegal. Just few days before the Attorney General declared one point; four million dollar punishment because we had made few structures without permission. Now tents don't need any permission; only permanent structures need permission. But our tents were not ordinary tents, we have invented a new tent for which we have applied to be patented. We have invented a tent which can be winterized. In snow it will be as useful, in rain as useful and we have used material which is used in permanent structures. Only then it can be winterized. So they just... and we asked them to come and see the tents before they decide the punishment. They are not permanent structures. But he went on and declared. So I told my people, "Just take a tent into the court. Assemble it within ten minutes and tell the judge to see into it and dissemble it within ten minutes and put it back into the bag and ask him, "Can a permanent building be assembled in ten minutes and reassembled in ten minutes?" And the judge had really a laugh. He said, "This is absurd. This case is simply dismissed."

If the Attorney General has any dignity, he should have jumped into the ocean. Putting 1.4 million dollar punishment without even taking a look whether it is a tent or a permanent structure, simply shows a very bigoted, dirty politician.

So if anything... Now they are trying to put the case into a state court. And this is a simple thing. When state itself is involved in the court, state court cannot decide it; they are part of the state. The case should go to the federal court. It is such a simple thing that a person who knows nothing of law can say. So they have been sending mediators. They know that the case is going to go into a federal court and they will be defeated, badly defeated. And then we are going to ask for many millions, because for these two years that the city has been illegal we have suffered immense economic loss.

So one of the mediators informed, who has fallen in love with the place, coming again and again and seeing the people dancing and singing after working twelve hours a day. Because it is not a easy job to change the desert. But we enjoyed the challenge. And he just informed that perhaps within few days the indictment is going to come.

So all the people who felt that it will be against them because they have committed some crime, they escaped. We are not going to support any criminal, but we make a division between the individual and his criminal act. We will support the individual with our love, but we will support the state and the law as far as his criminal act is concerned. And they will feel more clean if they come back and more stronger. It is always good to confess if you have done something wrong. It takes a burden off your chest. Even if the result is few years in jail, it doesn't matter. You can change those few years in jail in a beautiful meditation, isolation, meditation, work, freedom from all worries, there is no harm. And after three years my people will be there in front of the gate of the jail to receive you, you are coming fresh again. But hiding will make you suffocate, it will take all juice out of your life.

And soon you will see that many of them will start coming. One has come back, another has phoned that he is suffering badly. Soon the others will start, because what they are going to do? And they were living here a life of love and joy, of utter blissfulness. So I don't think that their hiding will last long. Either they will come by themselves or the Swiss police will catch hold of them. We have informed the Swiss police, the German police, the American police and we have told them to inform the international police and we have given their place where they are and they should be caught immediately, because their crime is big.

They have bugged many houses here and strangely enough, even my bedroom. I don't know for what reason, because in my bedroom I sleep alone. Perhaps once in a while in the night just out of habit I deliver a religious discourse, otherwise there is nothing to be bugged. They had bugged my sitting place. They have been taping all the telephones. They killed one man, they tried to kill three others and now we have eyewitnesses who saw one woman who has escaped with them, injecting my personal physician in a public meeting. And he immediately became aware because he is a physician, a doctor, with all the best qualifications from England. He immediately took his robe and showed to people blood coming out and the place where the injection has been put.

But there are poisons which are not detectable. So they were using those poisons which are not detectable, but in slow doses will kill a person in six months, eight months time, and you cannot even think that this is a murder. The person will start becoming weaker and weaker and weaker, more ready to be infected by anything. And he will die by some disease. And now we have discovered in Sheela's room much literature on poison, how to give it, in how much doses.

We have discovered the plans of all the houses where rooms are bugged, the maps and we are following the maps and finding that they are true. Just yesterday by chance, because Hasya has been chosen by the foundation members to be the new president, so she has moved in Sheela's room. She discovered that from that room goes a tunnel inside. So just out of curiosity they went in to see what is there. There she has few rooms and a tunnel to get out. So it seems a very well planned thing. In one car we have found all kinds of literature; how to make bombs, and all chemicals which are needed to make bombs.

One sannyasin has confessed that the one office, perhaps the planning office in Wasco county which was burned, was burned by Sheela's group. That one judge from Wasco county who felt that he has been poisoned through tea was really poisoned. Now we have witnesses.
Now these crimes cannot be just forgiven. Something has to be done about it.

One sannyasin who was our best pilot... Sheela wanted him to take one of our planes loaded with bombs and gas, as much as it can carry, and crash it with Wasco county building and jump before crash in a parachute..."To save yourself, but destroy the county building." Because he refused, he was immediately sent to Germany. He phoned from there, that "I am immensely happy that gang has moved. Can I come back?" So I said, "You have to come back because you may be needed to testify that you have been told to do this. Because you refused you have been removed." And many people have been removed, perhaps they did not obey or perhaps they obeyed and there was fear that it may be discovered so they have to be removed immediately somewhere else.

All this was happening and it could happen only because the commune is interested in its own work, the work is too much. We have to create our food, we have to create our vegetables, we have to create our houses...

And I am very much against poverty. To me poverty is our own creation. It could have been stopped long before. And in my commune there is nobody who is poor. Everybody is enjoying everything that a human being should have. The whole commune is fully air-conditioned. For five thousand sannyasins, air-conditioned, beautiful rooms with all latest equipment for comfort.

So they are continuously in work, making roads, making houses. We are doing everything on our own. Teaching in the university, taking courses, taking care of the children, of the school, taking care of the cleaning of the whole commune. You will not find a cleaner place anywhere. Taking care against any kind of infection like AIDS so that nobody suffers from this commune. Nowhere in the world they have taken all these measurements that we are taking. So the commune is totally absorbed in its work.

I was silent and almost outside the commune and she got a good gap to do whatsoever crime she wanted to commit. But this is not going to happen again. It has been a good lesson to us.

Okay.

INTERVIEW WITH MIKE HOUSICAL, THE GLOBE, USA; THE DAILY TELEGRAPH, SYDNEY, AUSTRALIA; AND THE STAR, LONDON, UK
Q: WOULD YOU COMMENT ON A REPORT WHICH I GOT FROM ZURICH THIS MORNING THAT SHEELA IS SPENDING AT THE RATE OF FIFTY THOUSAND DOLLARS A WEEK ON TWO CREDIT CARDS OWNED BY THE RAJNEESH INVESTMENT CORPORATION.

A: Yes, some information has come to commune office here too, that they have taken commune money from the bank which is illegal. It is not for anybody's personal use, but because Sheela has married a Swiss sannyasin who was able to withdraw the money, they may be spending, but we have put... because the commune has asked, "Should we get them arrested?" So we have informed them that they should be arrested on two counts, the money they have completely taken out of the bank, one thing.

Second thing, Sheela has committed bigamy. She was married to an American and without divorcing him she married a Swiss sannyasin just to get into Switzerland and get the residence permit there. And then she became aware that this is bigamy and this is illegal here, this is illegal in Switzerland, a crime. So she went to Nepal. Nepal is a poor country in India where you can bribe any magistrate very easily. And got a divorce pre-dated which we can prove because she was helped by our sannyasins there. And we can prove that it was after the marriage. So report the bigamy thing also and get them arrested.

Q: SO HOW MANY TIMES HAS SHE BEEN MARRIED THEN SIR, BECAUSE HER FIRST HUSBAND WAS MARK SILVERMAN, I BELIEVE.

A: Yes.

Q: NOW HE DIED OF CANCER.

A: He died of cancer.

Q: THEN HER SECOND HUSBAND WAS JOHN SHELFER, WHO SHE MARRIED ON A JUMBO JET GOING TO INDIA.

A: He was her second husband, Jayananda.

Q: BUT IF THE FIRST HUSBAND WAS DEAD, SIR, THEN THAT WOULDN'T BE BIGAMY, WOULD IT?

A: No, the second husband is alive and this is a third husband.

Q: WHY DID SHE GO TO MEXICO AT THE END OF JULY?

A: Just to marry this Swiss man. And that we have come just to know, because people have opened their mouths, not fearing her. Her own secretary she wanted to take with her, afraid that she knows everything, but she is a brave woman, she simply refused to go. And she said she will stay here. And she has given the whole information that they went to Mexico to marry and then she came here and then became aware of the bigamy, then went to Nepal to get a pre-dated... And sent her old husband to Australia so he does not come in between anywhere, he is not even aware perhaps.

Q: DO YOU KNOW YET SIR FROM YOUR BOOKKEEPERS JUST HOW MUCH IS MISSING IN MONEY?

A: Difficult. It will take a little time because the person who was in charge of the finances has also escaped with them. But one thing is certain, that fifty-five million debt they had left behind out of which certainly some money they must have shifted before they moved away from here.

Q: HOW DOES THAT LEAVE THE FUTURE OF THE COMMUNE FINANCIALLY RIGHT NOW?

A: Perfectly good, there is no problem.

Q: HAVE MANY PEOPLE LEFT BECAUSE OF THIS INCIDENT?

A: No. Many people will be coming back who had left because of Sheela and her group and their behavior. It was obnoxious and...

Q: DO THE POLICE ANTICIPATE A QUICK ARREST?

A: They should be arrested quickly before they commit more crime. That is a simple thing to understand, that criminals should not be left loose for long, they can commit more crime.

INTERVIEW WITH ROGER WORTHINGTON, CHICAGO TRIBUNE, CHICAGO, ILLINOIS
Q: OSHO, IT SEEMS SHEELA'S ABUSE OF POWER OCCURRED WITH A WEAK RAJNEESH FOUNDATION BOARD AND A WEAK RUBBER-STAMP CITY COUNCIL. DOES THE GREATER RESPONSIBILITY YOU URGE RAJNEESHPURAM INCLUDE A TRULY INDEPENDENT, EMPOWERED CITY COUNCIL THAT WILL SPEAK FOR THE CITY OF RAJNEESHPURAM AND REPRESENT ALL THE PEOPLE OF RAJNEESHPURAM AND IN A TRUE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE?

A: She was president of the Rajneesh Foundation. She was the most important person and because all the finances belonged to the religious trust, everything that has to be done in the commune, they have to look for loans from the foundation. Naturally, by and by she became more and more powerful over these people. They were all, they are all separate corporations. And because she was my secretary, that created the whole problem. So anything between me and my sannyasins, the corporations, the city councils, she was to bring the message to me and I have to give the answer. Now the message she could bring according to her idea what she wanted and my answer also she could manage in her own way. Whatever she wanted that this iss my answer. And there was no way for people to know whether this is my answer or not.

And they love me and they trust me and they have loved me for all these fifteen years and they know me, that I cannot take any advantage of their love and trust. So they simply accepted Sheela's word as representing me. This is the whole cause that created the problem. And seeing it, the moment I became aware that something is going wrong, because I had still approach of my physician, my dentist, my caretaker. I could get a little information from them. And as I became aware that something is going wrong, I started speaking again and became available to the commune.

The whole commune was excited and ecstatic except Sheela and her group, because they lost their whole grip. Now nobody was going to listen to them. From that moment she started going to Australia for any small excuse, for Japan, for Singapore, for Europe, for Switzerland. And finally this time when she came she wrote me a letter. She did not have the courage even to face me. She wrote a letter that "I don't feel anymore excitement of coming here. In fact I feel happier in Europe, in Australia, or anywhere else."

The next day I answered in the public lecture, that why she is not feeling excitement anymore, because she has no more any power. She may be the president, but she cannot dominate and exploit the commune. And why she is feeling happy in Europe, because we have many communes in Europe where she is still my representative because I am not going there. But if she wants to know the exact reason, I can come to Europe, or to Singapore, or to Japan, or to Australia, anywhere she wants and immediately she will see there her excitement disappearing.

Q: OSHO, HAD THE CITY COUNCIL BEEN FUNCTIONING AS CITY COUNCILS DO IN MOST CITIES, AND HAD THE MAYOR BEEN FUNCTIONING AS MOST MAYORS FUNCTION, THEN THIS ALLEGED ABUSE OF POWER BY SHEELA WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE, THAT SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN COUNTERMANDED AND CALLED TO QUESTION BY THE DULY ELECTED BODIES OF RAJNEESHPURAM. AND THAT WAS NOT THE CASE. I'M WONDERING WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT MORE RESPONSIBILITY BY YOUR FOLLOWERS, WHETHER OR NOT THAT INCLUDES A GREATER SENSE OF DEMOCRATIC FUNCTIONING BY THE DULY POLITICAL BODIES OF THE CITY?

A: That is true. The mayor of Rajneeshpuram has also disappeared with her. Perhaps he was also part of the gang. And there is absolute democracy as far as these city councils are concerned. But my approach to democracy is far higher than party politics. In a small commune of five thousand people, I can create again a better democracy like Athens. We don't have any parties, but we want to come to an unanimous decision about everything. And people are intelligent, and they can see who is capable of doing what, so by talking, discussing, coming to a certain conclusion, we never fight, that three candidates stand up for a post unless there is a consensus in the whole commune for one person and the whole commune is ready to support him. In fact the commune pursues the person to stand up for the post, not the person standing up for the post and then bragging about himself and giving promises to you that "I will do this and that." and making a campaign. There is no campaign. It is just the reverse. The commune comes to a consensus that this man seems to be the right person, persuade him. And it is very difficult because nobody wants to get into politics.

So it is a different approach to democracy, to true democracy, where every decision is nonpolitical, but unanimous. In the ordinary democracy, fifty-one percent people rule over forty-nine percent people. It is not much of a democracy. And sometimes actually what happens is, that the majority rules over the minority, it can be understood. But the vice versa happens. The minority rules over majority.

I will give you an example. I was in a city, Jabalpur in India and the corporation consisted of twenty-one members; ten members of one party, ten members of another party, and one woman who was independent. And she was the most third-rate candidate out of all, but she had the key. Whomsoever she joins will become the ruling council. And her condition was whoever makes her mayor, she will join. Those who made her mayor, she joined that group. Now a single woman is ruling the whole city who has not voted for her, just a small minority ruling the whole majority and deciding for everybody.

The same was the situation with Indira Gandhi. Only thirty percent of the Indian Parliament was in her favor. Seventy percent was against, but because they were divided amongst themselves they could not defeat her. So thirty percent is ruling over seventy percent. And do you call it democracy?

A real democracy can exist only in small communes. And my idea of democracy is that the whole world, instead of being divided into countries should be divided into communes, millions of communes around the world. And every commune coming to unanimous decisions and a direct democracy. And it is very easy, because these five thousand people here know everybody, who is who.

Q: IT SEEMS THAT THE FIVE THOUSAND PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY ABDICATED RESPONSIBILITY FOR MA SHEELA'S DECISIONS; THEY GAVE IN THEIR CONSENSUS OF SUPPORT. AND SHE ASSUMED POWER OVER THE ELECTED BODIES OF THE CITY.

A: No, they are not responsible, because you can choose anybody who is completely innocent and can turn a criminal the next day. There is no responsibility of the whole commune. The whole commune decided for Sheela and other posts, for people who were really good and human. But power corrupts people.

Q: IT WAS ALSO OBVIOUS TO QUITE A FEW OF US FROM THE OUTSIDE THAT THE HOTEL ROOMS AT HOTEL RAJNEESH, THE TELEPHONE LINES WERE BUGGED A YEAR AGO AT THIS TIME. IT MUST HAVE BEEN OBVIOUS TO SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO WORKED IN THE AREA AROUND THE SWITCHBOARD IN THE HOTEL. WAS THAT KNOWLEDGE COMMUNICATED TO YOU, OR OTHER PEOPLE IN POWER OTHER THAN THOSE SURROUNDING MA SHEELA?

A: You have to understand one thing. Germany is one of the most intelligent country in the world, but it was ruled by a crackpot, Adolf Hitler. And even the best minds in Germany like Martin Heidegger was in support of him. Only after his defeat people became aware that what they were doing was not right. It is a very simple human phenomenon. For example, if Sheela says to the telephone operator to tape any conversation because there are thirty informers imposed by the government into the commune. The telephone operator feels perfectly okay, the operator is not committing any crime seeing that the government has imposed people. And it WAS a truth, that there were informers here. Perhaps they are still here, but now there is nothing to inform. So if she said to tape their conversations, knowing perfectly well it is not legal, but it is also not legal to put informers in the commune. So simply they followed her, seeing that she is trying to save the commune.

Now they understand that it was wrong. For example, my own room was bugged. Naturally the person who must have bugged the room must have felt that, "What is going on? Why I am bugging the room of a man I love and I trust, for whom I have come here for thousands of miles?" But Sheela must have given her an excuse, that that bugging is just to protect Osho, so if anybody enters in the room or any trouble is created in the room, immediately the guards come to know about it. Because it was bugged and the guards had the connection and Sheela will be able to reach within five minutes. So she must have given some kind of explanation to these people which was legitimate. And for every illegal activity you can find legitimate actions, legitimate explanations. So these people are simple and innocent and trusting people. They thought whatever she is doing, she is doing for the commune's safety.

But her own desire to do it was totally different. There was no danger for me for anybody to enter into my room. I don't see. But she was continuously in a paranoia. Perhaps her own fear of doing all these crimes created the paranoia. And she wanted if these things were exposed, she would have said that she has done everything to protect Osho.

But I don't need any protection. I have lived my life enough, in fact, more than enough, and so intensely and so totally, that I am fulfilled completely, utterly contented. So death comes now, it destroys nothing, because future holds nothing for me, only a repetition. So there is no question, and it is far better to be assassinated than to die in an ordinary way on a bed. Ninety-nine percent people die on the bed. I don't want to do that. That is too ordinary! Assassination is far better.

And what security? I had told her many times that "Don't be worried about security too much, because what security you can give to me in a country like America, where twenty percent presidents have been assassinated who have all possible security, so what security you can give to me?" But to the other people she was saying that it is for the security of Osho that we have to do this, we have to do that. That information is coming every day now that it was said to them that it is for Osho's security that we have to be ready to make bombs, to make a underground tunnel in case Osho has to be taken out without anybody knowing. I have no idea of that tunnel either; just today I have heard about it, but I would like to see it. And we will use it in some beautiful way, make some good restaurant there or something beautiful so everybody can come and see... What problem is there? As far as my death is concernedd there is no problem. And as far as my life is concerned I am living it so luxuriously, there is no problem either. But she must have been cheating innocent people.

And they are coming up. And within seven days hundreds of sannyasins will expose their heart which they have been keeping just out of the fear because the gang, if they can kill my physician, make an attempt to kill my another physician, if they can kill a man and simply throw his body out of the ranch, these people must have been afraid.

And these people cannot go back to their own society for the simple reason that now there they will be unfit. They are totally deprogrammed. They cannot fit in a Christian church, because listening to the Bible they will remember me, that Osho used to say that the Holy Bible is the most holy pornographic book. They cannot be Hindus again because I have told them that Krishna has sixteen thousand wives and I don't think that is human, because what happened to the people... And these wives were stolen, they were other peoplesa wives, their husbands, their children were left behind and this man is considered to be the incarnation of God! Then what will be the incarnation of devil?

I have deprogrammed them completely, they cannot fit in any society. They can only fit with the sannyasins, so they did not want to create any trouble for themselves because Sheela was quick to throw people out. And she will inform you only when the person was thrown out. When he was no more here she will inform me that he was creating too much trouble and this and that, and any excuse.

Even my own bodyguard who has served me in India for almost seven years with absolute love and trust, she managed to throw him out because she did not want such a intimate person to me, because he knew in every way what is my message and what is my instruction. Sheela could not deceive him. He will detect immediately that this is not Osho's instruction, it cannot be. He has known me for seven years sitting by my side every day, morning, evening, and the whole day taking care of my security. Sheela could not tolerate him here.

Here is sitting Vivek, who has been with me even before Sheela may be born. She has been with me from 1970. And she has looked after me so devotedly, so lovingly, so carefully, not a single moment she has rested. The moment she wakes me from in the morning, six o'clock up to eleven or twelve sometimes, she is continuously on the run. Sheela never wanted her to be there, so close, because she understands me more than anybody else. Sheela cannot befool her. She tried to poison her and to kill her. And now we have persons who say that in front of them the plan was drawn that how Vivek should be killed, how poison should be delivered in teas, in coffees and how she should be brought to the Jesus house. These people are not responsible.

They had chosen her when she was really a different person. And a person has so many faces. Do you think when America had chosen Nixon that there will be a Watergate? Is not the whole America responsible for Watergate? Nobody knows about future. We can only decide what is available today. And what is hidden in the deep unconscious and the collective unconscious of the person, even the person is not aware.

So when power comes into your hands, your unconscious starts surfacing, and then your collective unconscious starts surfacing. Power gives you energy to do things which you would have never dreamt. Nobody is responsible. Even Sheela is not responsible, just a victim of her own unconscious mind.

HASYA: DR. SHUNYO HAS SENT IN A MESSAGE THAT SWAMI LAZARUS DIED WITHIN THE LAST HOUR. DR. INDIVAR ATTENDED TO HIM. WE CONSIDER HE HAS AIDS. HE PROBABLY DIED OF LYMPHOMA CANCER.

A: So a beautiful ceremony should be arranged.

HASYA: BECAUSE OF THE AIDS QUESTION, HE IS BEING RETESTED AND BECAUSE OF THE LEGAL ENQUIRIES WE ARE IN TOUCH WITH THE STATE MEDICAL EXAMINER. NORMALLY WE WOULDN'T.

A: No, in fact, tell them the AIDS virus immediately dies as the person dies, so if the person is dead, you cannot find anything related to AIDS in his body. So it is just wasting of time, but if they want to do they can do it. But prepare a beautiful celebration to say goodbye to Lazarus.

INTERVIEW WITH WALDEN KIRSCH, KGW TV, PORTLAND.
Q: OSHO, I HAVE A MEDIUM LENGTH QUESTION AND I HOPE YOU WILL OBLIGE ME WITH A BRIEF RESPONSE. YOU HAVE MADE SOME VERY SERIOUS CHARGES AGAINST YOUR FORMER AIDES IN THE PAST COUPLE DAYS. THESE CHARGES YOU KNOW COULD RESULT IN FEDERAL INDICTMENTS OR POSSIBLY EVEN PRISON TERMS. DO YOU THINK SHEELA'S GANG AS YOU'VE REFERRED TO HER, MAY TURN UPON YOU. DO YOU THINK THAT YOU MAY BE INDICTED, AND IF SO WOULD YOU APPEAR IN COURT?

A: I don't care about any problem. I will fell... I will face any challenge, there is no problem.

KIRSCH: WOULD YOU PERSONALLY TRAVEL TO COURT?

A: Yes, if there is a need, then I will face.

Q: DO YOU SEE THERE BEING A CHANCE THAT SHEELA COULD IN FACT TURN UPON YOU AND TESTIFY AGAINST YOU IN COURT.

A: No problem, because there is nothing that she can testify against me. The moment she will see me, she will fall into my feet and weep. There is no problem.

Q: SHOULD AN INDICTMENT BE HANDED DOWN, YOU'RE PERFECTLY WILLING HOW TO TRAVEL TO PORTLAND OR WHEREVER TO ANSWER CHARGES?

A: We will see that, because my whole powers of attorney are with the new president. If they are ready to give the summons to her, she will represent me, but if they want to me and they insist... It is against my health and they will have to take the responsibility if anything happens to me. I will travel anywhere, but it is against my health, so they will have to take the responsibility. So my legal people will see to it, that how many millions they will have to pay if I have an attack of asthma.

Q: YOU'RE CONFIDENT THAT SHE WILL NOT TESTIFY AGAINST YOU, IS THAT WHAT I HEAR YOU SAYING?

A: It is difficult, because what will be her mind at this moment, it cannot be at ease. Most probably she must be kept drugged by Puja because she must be in a great grief that she has betrayed me and the commune and left the commune in the times when she was needed. So it is difficult to say, but if she faces me in the court I am perfectly capable to face anybody. Sheela is just a child, nothing to be worried.

Q: YOU SAY THAT YOU LOVE HER STILL, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT SHE LOVES YOU AT THIS POINT?

A: Certainly. I love her and she loves me. That is a separate thing, totally separate. But her love was not so great that she could have avoided all these criminal things that she did, but I still love her. And I will propose before the court also that her actions may have been wrong, but the person is beautiful. And I have nothing against the person and I have loved the person, not his actions.

Q: HOW LIKELY DO YOU THINK IT IS THAT SHEELA WILL TURN AGAINST YOU IN COURT?

A: I don't see that she can do that.

Q: SHE CAN TRY, CAN SHE NOT?

A: That too will be very difficult because for three and half years I have been silent. I am a lazy person, I never leave my room except since I have started speaking I come for the press conference here or for the commune meeting in the Mandir. I am so lazy I don't even read newspapers, don't see television. For five years I have not read a book. I must be the most uninformed person in the world.

And I don't know where the office of the foundation is, I don't know where the Sheela's room is, I have never been there. I don't know where the city hall is. Just coming I see a board -- City Hall. That's all that I know about the city hall. I don't go anywhere in the commune.

In the afternoon I go for one hour ride into the forest and that road my people have made simply for me. So for twenty-three hours it simply meditates and waits for me. One hour only it is used without any traffic.

My life is so simple, I don't need anybody, I don't talk anybody, so I don't conceive how any crime can be even thought about me. A man who simply sits in his chair the whole day, sleeping twelve hours. You will not find another man in the world. And people who commit crime don't sleep twelve hours.

Q: EARLIER TODAY YOU SPOKE OF PROVIDING YOUR ATTORNEYS WITH SOME STRATEGYY FOR SETTING UP TENTS AND SUCH. THERE HAS BEEN SOME TALK THAT IN FACT YOU MAY HAVE BEEN MORE INVOLVED IN THE OPERATION OF THE COMMUNE THAN YOU SAY RIGHT NOW.

A: No, my attorneys are perfectly capable people. My legal advisers are perfectly capable. If they want any advice from me they can have, otherwise they can do anything they want to do. There is no problem. And in fact I myself am very much excited to face the United States judges and see how much intelligence these people have. I would like to face the Attorney General of Oregon into the Supreme Court of America. Because I feel I am for the American constitution and the Attorney General of Oregon and the Governor Atiya are against it.

So I will enjoy it. I have enjoyed every kind of thing in my life. And even if they jail me for few days that will be really groovy!

INTERVIEW WITH SWAMI VIDEHA, PANORAMA AND EXPRESSO, ITALY
Q: HI. OSHO, SINCE MANY PEOPLE COMING FROM OUTSIDE HAVE SEEN SOMETHING THERE, NOT CLEAR, HOW IS POSSIBLE THAT YOU, OR THE PEOPLE LIVING HERE DIDN'T FEEL THE SAME?

A: For the simple reason, because the people who come from outside don't know that a small minority group of five thousand people living surrounded by hostile people, they only see the few persons having guns to protect the commune, but they don't see the immense hostility in the Oregonians. The moment the hostility disappears, these guns will disappear. And now I think the time has come, the hostility will disappear. The hostility was because of Sheela and her group. Now that group is gone, there is no reason to be hostile.

We love this oasis we have created and we love America, because America is the only possibility for humanity's future. So we will be in every way helpful for all democratic values. Once it becomes known -- that's why I'm talking to all news media -- once it becomes known that I am absolutely in tune with the American constitution, its democratic values, the hostility will disappear and then the guns will disappear automatically, there is no need. I don't like them myself.

But the hostility has to disappear first. Otherwise, in our self-defense we will do everything that is needed. We will not harm anyone. In four years we have not harmed anyone, but we will not allow anybody to harm us either. We are absolutely against violence. To harm someone is violence, to allow someone to harm you is to support violence. We are totally against violence. We will never initiate any violence, but if some fanatics try violence against us, then we are going to retaliate as forcibly as possible. And everybody has the right to defend himself. It is everybody's birthright.

So those people who come, they only see the guns because guns are visible and the hostility around is invisible. So they are not at fault and they are not great seers that they can see the hostility, not very intelligent either to understand that the guns simply indicate that there are people around who can be violent to us, who would like to destroy us. We receive every day phone calls and letters that they would like us to destroy completely, that they would like us to leave Oregon forever, as if Oregon belongs to them.

Q: IT SEEMS YOU TEACH THROUGH EXPERIENCE. THIS HAS BEEN A GREAT EXPERIENCE FOR MANY SANNYASIN HERE. AND YOU ALSO SAY THAT PEOPLE ARE FAST ASLEEP... THEY NEED A GREAT SHOCK TO BE AWAKENED. HOW THE SANNYASINS AT THE RANCH WERE HELPED TO GROW BY TRUSTING SHEELA AND HER GANG; HOW THEY HAVE LEARNED; AND WHICH ARE THE GREAT EXPERIENCE YOU WILL CREATE FOR THEM TO WAKE UP?

A: I can create many devices, Sheela was only one, nothing to be worried about that. I can find new ways to wake them up. My whole expertise is to wake people up and to shock them. Now three days before you would never have thought that this shock is coming. So whenever it is needed, I will manage, don't be worried. You will have enough shocks unless you become enlightened!

Q: YOUR MESSAGE THROUGH THIS CHAOS OF THESE DAYS LOOKS MORE CLEAR. WHAT IS IMPRESSING THE PEOPLE IS YOUR COMPASSION, YOUR INNOCENCE AND YOUR CLARITY. THIS CAN BECOME PART OF THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE HUMANITY, OR STILL WILL BE CORRUPTED BY POWER?

A: No, if the whole humanity can help this innocence, this clarity, this intelligence, it cannot be corrupted by power, that is impossible. Nobody can corrupt me, no power can corrupt me. My sannyasins are still half asleep. I have to wake them up fully, then nobody will be able to take advantage of their innocence.

Innocence has its own power. And when people have a clarity to see things, then you cannot hide any crime and you cannot find any excuses to hide it. This is the way for the whole humanity. My communes are only models. Okay?